I met Roger and JoJo at a mobile outreach van in Albuquerque that provides services for the homeless including needle exchange.

Q: How do the cops treat you around here?

R: It depends which one it is. Who they are. They can be nice before and then mean.

J: If they know you. It depends how they feel about you. They treated us good. It’s not against the law to do heroin, but it’s against the law to possess it.

J: I’ve been arrested by US Marshals and FBI. I did a bank robbery in ’98.

R: It all depends, you show them respect, then it’s good.

Q: In general, what have you guys been picked up for? Have you been arrested?

J: Yeah, I’m a four time loser. I’ve been in prison four times. We’ve lived here all our lives. I’ve done federal time, too. In ’98 I robbed a bank in town- Bank of New Mexico. They gave me five years and three months, with three years probation. I finished in April.

R: I’ve been busted for- I’ve got a bunch of priors, I got two convictions, a felony-

J: But you’ve never been to prison

R: -but I’ve never been to prison. I got probation. The last one was for sales and trafficking. They gave me five years probation.

Q: Out of all the times you guys have been in front of a judge, have you ever been referred to a treatment program?

J: Never

R: I got one. For drinking alcohol and one for-

J: Drugs

R: It was a DWI back in 1975. The other was for throwing rock. I got an ankle bracelet, curfew.

J: He did the TLC program and everything they asked him to do. They were supposed to cut him off in two and a half years. When he saw the probation officer, he said, “What are you still doing on probation? You were supposed to be cut off years ago.” He said, well, that probation officer didn’t like me.

R: It was cocaine. Today I’m into heroin. There’s not enough- the methadone is too expensive.

Q: What happened with the sentencing?

R: I took a plea bargain. They dropped it from 24 years to 14 years.

J: So if he got another charge, he would have to do the whole 14.

Q: How old were you guys when you first started using?

R: Me, I started at 13. I started smoking opium. I smoked so much opium-

J: He didn’t even know it was heroin.

R: -I didn’t even know it was heroin. Someone took me around. I didn’t know it was heroin. I started smoking weed when I was about 12 or 11. You could see it growing wild.

J: Now, we don’t smoke weed or nothing. We’ve come a long way in our drug addiction. I just broke 120mg of methadone with my addiction. MCI will help pay for methadone for six months. They’ll pay six months of med time. You have up to a year to use a voucher. The methadone clinics, they call to verify and then tell them they’re good. If you can get there before 12, you can get dosed that same day. MCI will fax them a voucher to pay for six months. It’s through the University [of New Mexico].

Q: So if someone wants to go into drug treatment, they go to MCI?

J: Yeah, like if they don’t have no income, like I don’t have no income, you gotta go to MCI. They’ll help you pay for six months.

R: The thing is, they used to have it in Europe.

Q: What happens after six months?

J: You have to pay for it.

R: Eight dollars a day or $180 a month. Another is just $130, but you have to be on financial aid.

Q: How many methadone programs have you guys been in?

R: I’ve been in six: Sixth Street, Monroe,

J: The Fox Building, Silver Springs, and CASA

Q: Is it always six months?

J: Yes, but some places won’t even take the vouchers.

Q: When you do the one with the voucher, does that include counseling groups?

J: Oh yeah.

J: Me, I have no income. So eight dollars a day is a lot. I’ve finished my voucher. I finished my voucher two weeks ago. I don’t have no money, but I don’t wan to go back to prison.

R: Methadone one time was free. Then it was $45. From $45 to $110.

J: Now, these privately owned firms, they chargin $180 bucks a month.

Q: When was it free?

J: In the 70’s, in the 60’s.

R: It’s so much money going into education and what about funds for people who want to get rehabilitated and who want to get on methadone. You have to wait six months more.

J: How come they don’t have no kind of funds for-

R: -us

J: -for people who want to get rehabilitated? They want people to get rehabilitated and to get on methadone, but when you go, they say you have to wait six months more, we don’t have the money. They told me to go to MCI and MCI told me I had to be off the program for six months and then they would give me another voucher.

R: Another thing is, I can go today and rip off a store for $10 and do that every day, every day, and get misdemeanors, that is why jail is so full of misdemeanors-

J: Because people are out there to get money for methadone.

R: The methadone, they should have more money, more money for people that need it and crime will come down. Crime will come down and…

J: I mean, a lot of people do good on methadone, they keep and buy houses, they’re working, taking care of the kids, they’re not living on the street.

R: They’re not ripping off the store for $10 or robbing people for $20.

Q: What do you guys do to get money?

R: I get social security.

J: And I just applied. I applied before, but I had to go to prison, so I had to stop.

Q: When did you get out?

J: In April and I was in a coma for 25 days. I came home clean and I went and scored and I did 20 units, I OD’d and he brought me back with Narcan- he went to the Narcan class.

Q: He did! Where did you have a Narcan class?

J: At harm reduction.

R: I know how to use it. I’ve brought 10 people already. I know CPR, I know Narcan- if somebody OD’d on me right now, I could bring them back.

Q: What year did you do the Narcan class?

J: Two years-

R: About a month-

J: No, it was two years ago and you do it every year-

R: - Yeah.

Q: So you just did it again last month?

J: Yeah.

Q: Had you heard of Narcan before that?

J: Yeah, the hospitals use it.

R: The hospitals use it.

J: And now the cops carry it in their car. The ambulances automatically carry it, and we have it at home.

R: I have it at home.

J: We’ve had people call- run to our house- “JoJo- Do you have any Narcan??!” Yeah! “My mom OD’d, my brother OD’d…” Ok, let’s go.

R: I had someone OD in my house and I brought them back.

J: I’ve talked to the ambulance people about this. Keep the blood circulating until they can get there.

R: Do the CPR.

J: Keep a blanket wrapped around them-

R: - keep them warm.

J: I’ve heard people shoot them with milk- that will kill them!

R: I know someone, she shot him up with milk and he died. The paramedics said, “What did you do?!”

J: It’s a myth of the dopefiends- I’ve heard that since I was a kid. If you don’t know what you’re doing, go to the fire department. That’s what I learned. My mom used to OD on me, OD on me all the time. They said, keep her warm, keep her in a warm shower. Do not put ‘em in a cold shower. And do not put ice on their balls. Some people think that will wake them up. But they can go into shock- that’s common sense.

“I want to help out people, too. I don’t know where to get started.”

Q: How many times have you seen friends OD and survive?

R: This year? About three.

J: I’ve seen a lot of people OD because they don’t know what they’re doing.

R: Oh yeah, if you don’t know what you’re doing, you will die.

J: A lot of people panic. Or they get scared. They think the cops are going to come and charge us with murder or- Well, I don’t care, I don’t care if you’re a total stranger, I’ll stop, if I know you’ve OD’d, I’ll stop and I’ll do mouth-to-mouth, they can’t get me. I wasn’t the one that injected them. You can’t stand there and let somebody die.

Q: JoJo, when you got out of prison, you hadn’t been using?

J: Nuh-uh. That night I scored a 20 dollar paper. I went out and a friend brought me back. We made love and I fixed again. I fell asleep at 7:30 in the morning. I was dead. I was DOA- dead on arrival. My daughter showed up in the morning for breakfast and kept knocking on the door, knocking on the door, knocking the door and nobody answered. So she opened up the bedroom window. She said, “Mom, you and dad were lying there with no clothes on.” She started screaming and he got up and opened up the door, but I was already grey. I had thrown up already. They called 911. I had fluid in my lungs so they said that I was dead. And my daughter said, “No!” And they gave me three shots of Narcan and that still didn’t help me so they rushed me to Presbyterian Hospital and… when I woke up it was 25 days later.

They had me on life support. My right kidney gave out.

Q: When you went to the hospital, the state took care of that for you?

J: Mmhmm.

R: It was $10,000-20,000.

J: He has Medicare, so he gets covered. But I don’t.

R: It cost $1,500/day on life support.

Q: What do people say about coming out of prison and using? Didn’t you know you couldn’t use as much?

J: I’d been doing drugs for 33 years, I am 44 years old. I said, man, I had never, ever OD’d that bad. We’ve been together for 16 years and the year 2004 was not my year. We’ve told people about the Narcan class, we’ve told people about the AIDS class. Because I have Hepatitis C. I’ve had Hepatitis C since I was 18-

R: So have I-

J: -so it’s messed up my liver and I don’t even drink alcohol. It’s because of my drug addiction.

R: We know how to clean syringes right.

J: This needle exchange right here, it’s a lifesaver. Other states don’t have it.

Q: Why is it a lifesaver?

J: Because people will go pick up needles out of a garbage dumpster-

R: - a garbage can-

J: - because they’re so sick. You ain’t thinking when you’re sick.

R: It’s preventing AIDS and Hepatitis, Gonorrhea, all kinds of stuff-

J: And you bring, and you bring- not Gonorrhea

R: If it wasn’t for the needle exchange we would have a mess.

J: People have to bring back their needles to get new ones.

R: We would be in a hell of a mess.

J: Before the needle exchange we bought our needles for $25 a box at this store.

Q: What would be the ideal treatment program for you guys?

R: Out-patient

J: Out-patient

R: Out-patient and lower the cost.

J: If I had a voucher [for drug treatment] I could go back to school. I could take care of my health a lot better.

R: We’d have a better life. I’d like to go back to college.

Q: Did your parents-

J: My mom, my dad did.

R: My dad was an alcoholic, but he died back in ’75, ’74-

J: But my mom, my dad was a heroin user. We’ve all been living here, my grandparents, we’re all from here. Even though my mom and dad were heroin users, they quit using for 25 years. They were on their methadone. My dad was in the service. My mom, always had our house spotless. I am 44 years old. My dad never saw me smoke a cigarette until 1994. My mommy and I, we lived together, my dad got 300 years for selling drugs. He got out and that’s when they gave him 10-15-100. My dad died now when I was in fed. He died three years ago. He had Parkinson’s Disease.

Q: So did your family call?

J: They called me and then the warden called and came with the priest. I had three seizures right there and then so they took me to the infirmary and they asked if I wanted to commit suicide and stuff. I said, “No, I just want to go grief in my room and leave me alone.” They said if I needed to make any calls to let them know. They were good. It was a federal medical center.

R: Opiate addiction, alcohol addiction, we don’t have the money to pay for treatment. In order for us to get money, we have to go rob you, or steal your car or rob your store.

Q: Why do some people become addicted to drugs and other people don’t?

J: It’s a way of life.

R: A way of life unhappy. Unhappy about your problems.

J: My dad, when I started to use, it broke his heart. I was 13 years old. I kept it from him from three years and he did not know until one day when I could get up out of bed. And then he put me on the methadone program because I was a minor and it was free. I wouldn’t go to school, I would make up excuses.

Q: Why do some people have low self-esteem?

R: Some people do heroin because of chronic pain.

J: He has a blood disease, there is no cure for him.

R: Yeah, chronic pain.

J: That’s why the doctors said you have to go back on methadone.

R: We need more help.

J: CASA is a state program. When I started it was free. But then it went up to $25 and when I got out of prison it was $40. My mom paid the $40 for me. Medicaid was paying for me because it was a prescribed drug, but you have to go through financial aid- it is $135.

R: It’s still out of your pocket. But $20 less.

J: You go to Turkey, Germany, England, London, they’ll give you methadone.

R: - Holland, you read about other countries, crime is down, no robbery, no stealing.

J: When they arrested Roger for being under the influence of methadone-

R: I was the first one on the law books for driving under methadone. It was ’95.

J: I said, what do you mean driving under the influence of methadone? It’s legal? And he said, yeah, but it’s a controlled substance. Well, you might as well go get a damn tow truck and arrest 3,000 people!

R: I was the first one in Albuquerque-

J: The first one in New Mexico.

R: They threw me in jail.

J: The judge said to get a petition. I said, people depend on methadone, they can’t function without methadone. The judge said you can’t drive under the influence of a controlled substance.

R: I went to some kind of school. I had probation and had to pay a fine. A hundred some…

Q: Have other people been arrested?

J: Yeah! Sometimes, you have a double dose and they’ll take you to jail. Some will let you drink it. You say, “Hey! I paid for that!” But they don’t care.