Seanna works with the Utah AIDS Foundation, based out of Salt Lake City.

Q: How did you get to the Utah AIDS Foundation?

Well, it’s kind of interesting. I was in the graduate school of social work up at the University of Utah. Because of my past record, I got to a point where it was extremely difficult to find a practicum placement, an internship, because everything had to go through human services and I couldn’t go through human services because of my record. So I came here in the summer and kind of squeezed in. They didn’t ask, I didn’t tell. I started as an intern and then left for my second year of grad school and did an internship at the HRP. After that, the other case manager quit and they offered me the job. So I took it- they didn’t ask. That was one consideration- who would hire me when I graduated? With all these past drug charges?

So actually, it ended up, both agencies hired me. One, this agency, doesn’t know anything, although they have been pressuring me to get licensed, which has created an interesting situation. And Harm Reduction hired me specifically because I had a background.

They know I have some things, some misdemeanors or something in my background. I have always been very open about the fact that I smoke weed because I have Hepatitis C. It causes extreme joint pain and I am very open about that. I use it medicinally. I don’t use it all the time. I use it at night only. I don’t use it to party anymore. It is the only pain reliever I can take that is not directly filtered by my liver. My doctor recommended it actually. She said there was only one pain reliever that didn’t go through the liver.

Q: Would it be problematic for you to use opiates?

Yeah, because they are processed by your liver and that would put addition stress on it. Plus, with past addiction problems, I didn’t want to go that route. Plus, I commute like 40 miles each way. Driving on opiates is not an option.

Q: Tell me about your drug history.

In 1984 I had two charges of obtaining prescriptions under false pretenses- like doctor shopping. I used my real name, I just went to a whole lot of doctors. At that time in Utah, the guidelines said I should go to prison- I was never offered a drug program, treatment, nothing. My past record was not all that horrible. I had a couple of DUI’s, but nothing major. At the time though the guidelines called for prison.

I have been to the state prison twice actually. The second time was the exact same situation. Once of course you have been to prison, that really puts you high on the matrix scale. I wasn’t offered drug treatment then either. I have never been in drug treatment at all. I just did it on my own. Utah has indeterminate sentencing, which means you get a “0-5” which means anything from six months to five years. The Board of Pardons actually determines when you get out. At no time was drug treatment even suggested as a parole condition. It was the 80’s and it was “Send them to prison.” If you have more than one felony in Utah, you can never get your record expunged. It doesn’t matter that it was 17 years ago. You can’t get it off your record unless you go and petition and even then it doesn’t completely remove it from your record. It means that when you go for a job and do a background check, even though they know you have a record they have to pretend you don’t. People will still know my record, they just won’t be able to do anything about it. So when I get my license, they’ll know my entire record, they just can’t say anything about it because I could sue them. There is still a humiliation factor there.

I run into this with clients all the time. Here, and at Harm Reduction. They want to go back to school, be employed, do something, but they have this criminal record. If you have more than five misdemeanors or more than one felony you can’t get it expunged. You’ll never get a job. Well, you might get a job, but you’ll never have a career. The state won’t let you.

Q: What do you think the AIDS Foundation’s response would be if they found out?

I think they’d fire me. I don’t think they would have hired me to begin with. Like I said, they’ve been really pushing to get me licensed. It is not required, but it would look better. I think if they had known when they hired me I don’t think they would have ever offered me the job, seriously. Even though they never asked, I think they would be… kind of shocked. I think there is a possibility I would lose my job. Which is really weird, because over at Harm Reduction, nobody cares. It actually helped.

It’s weird too, because it totally helps me with clients. Even though I don’t disclose that to a lot of people, I am pretty open about being an ex-addict. There’s not too much of an issue about drug use as long as I don’t use now. The criminal thing though, I think they might have a problem with that. This is Utah and the people here were born and raised here and to know a woman went to prison…

But it actually helps me with clients. I have a lot of clients that say I am first person they’ve talked to that seems to get it, who doesn’t give them the lecture and the look. I don’t make them feel less than for using.

I have a lot of clients that don’t like Marinol, it makes them too loopy. They smoke weed and they know I don’t have a problem with that. They can talk about it and feel free to tell me stuff they don’t tell their doctor or anybody else.

Q: How did you start doctor shopping to begin with?

Well…how did that start…? It’s kind of weird. I had gone to a dentist for a root canal or something and this dentist was a total quack. He said my jaw was broken based on an x-ray and he wired my job shut. Well, he wired it in the wrong spot and I was constantly in pain, constantly. He was writing and writing and writing for opiates and Demerol and I think he got kind of nervous because I was always in pain, in agony. Finally I unwired my own job. He stopped writing, but by that point, I was completely addicted. I had been substance using for quite a while. I was smoking a lot of weed, partying. I was smoking, when I was younger I did a lot of acid, but nothing major, no heroin or anything. I was just messing around. By the time this doctor quit writing I was completely addicted so I went to this other doctor and he turned out to be a script doctor. I didn’t realize he had been forbidden to practice in Colorado because he had been over-prescribing. And I didn’t realize the DEA was watching him, which meant they were watching all his patients. I kind of had a knack for finding doctors who would over-prescribe, which was good for me, but it meant my name was always popping up. Pretty soon, they had about five doctors and they just came in with a warrant. They didn’t do anything to the doctors, nobody lost their license over it, even though they were prescribing phenomenal amounts. Nobody was sanctioned. I think one doctor got paranoid and moved to St. George. But all the doctors I saw are still practicing.

I on the other hand was sent to prison.

I was using my real name, but there is a law in Utah that says you cannot see more than one or two doctors for the same condition- it’s the doctor shopping law. I was paying, I wasn’t trying to scam them or anything. I was paying them in cash, using my real name, my phone number. It was just that I was seeing five or six doctors for the same condition.

Q: How could you afford that?

My ex-husband was working and I had a small trust fund from my grandmother. It was an interest-bearing fund and during Reaganomics in the ‘80’s it was like, “Woohoo.” We both got hooked. He ended up doctor shopping as much as I did, but they didn’t send him to prison. He didn’t do one day in jail. He got probation, I got prison. The doctors are still practicing.

Q: What was the difference in your records if you both had DUI’s?

In this state, because I was a female, it was offensive to them that I was not home having children. It was more expected that he might do something like that… In this state, it’s very LDS [referring to the Mormon Church], which means it is very patriarchal. Men run everything, women don’t. It just bothered them that as a female I was not doing what I was supposed to be doing. Of course with the minimum guidelines… He shopped as many doctors just as often and he did probation for a year and that was the end of it.

Q: How long were you in prison?

I was in there six months, I got out, I had a parole violation- I walked away from a halfway house for a couple of years, I didn’t go too far, but nobody ever looked. I got stopped for a traffic violation and they found the warrant so I was sent back for another year. I finished that sentence and got out and by that time I had met new and interesting people and discovered the joys of heroin in the prison. I thought, I don’t have to doctor shop for that… It led to a whole new way of life. My roommate was getting it from her husband during visiting. The first time I ever did heroin was in prison.

And it was cheaper and easier to get and the high lasted longer and so I thought, ‘okay…” I started playing around with that when I got out and got addicted real quick. Real quick. I didn’t exactly expect that. It took longer to get addicted to the pharmaceuticals, in part because I started on them in legitimate pain. So I was expecting it to take longer that it did. That kind of took me by surprise. By that time I was divorced and got married to another guy using heroin. He did a whole bunch of theft by deceptions. Because I was there I was charged with felony theft by deception and given a prison sentence and he was sent to drug rehab and given two years probation. I did two years on that one. My parole was another 18 months. He got a 60 day drug rehab.

Q: Did he have priors?

Yeah, for drug charges in California. He had been in jail, but no state time.

Because of the consistent drug use on my part, and having been in prison, the guidelines had me automatically in prison.

Women in Utah, interestingly enough, tend to do longer time in prison than men. Men tend to come in and out a lot quicker for the same types of crimes. For sure, men tend to do more violent crime in general, but for the same types of crimes, women in Utah tend to take the fall faster. A lot of the women in the prison were there because of something their boyfriends did. Not that they were innocent, they were in on it, but they didn’t actually do the thing. They were just there, but they get stiffer prison sentences. Women are often not offered drug treatment while men are. There are more men-only drug treatment programs than there are for women. There are just two for women. Waiting lists for women tend to be very long and not easily gotten into. One of the programs isn’t even designated as a drug rehab as much as a homeless shelter for women with a drug treatment program. There are five or six men’s programs.

Q: Are you from Utah?

We moved from Arizona when I was 16. It was definitely culture shock moving here. I got here and within the first week had a smoking citation for cigarettes. I had to go to juvenile court and get a big lecture. My parents never really cared. I used to go to the store when I was nine and buy cigarettes for my dad.

When I was in high school in Arizona, it was during the seventies, it was like everybody was high. It was a huge party. It wasn’t all that stigmatized in Arizona. Obviously people didn’t want you to do it, but it was like, “there they go again…” But the kids here who got high were so demonized and ostracized. There was this little group of seven of us. We hung out with a lot of older people because no one our age would hang out with us which led to some situations that were not so great. I noticed right away that to be out of the norm in this state is like instant marginalization. There is no middle ground. You’re either good or you’re not. And if you’re not, it’s instant marginalization.

I would assume it would be the same for any heavily religious state. I am sure small towns in Iowa do not look kindly upon their drug using population. It’s not jus the Mormons, but it is very, very strong here.

Q: Have you thought about moving?

You know I have! I am almost too stubborn to move. There are things that need to be changed here. I am an activist by nature and this is just prime for activism here in this state. I enjoy working with marginalized populations, I enjoy the shock value of talking about some of my clients, “Oh my gosh, how can you work with these people?!” It would be easier somewhere else, but it wouldn’t be as rewarding.

Q: How have your perspectives changed after coming in from a professional angle?

That’s interesting because I have worked with the city prosecutor, and worked with judges and talked to the mayor… I kind of chuckle. They have no idea who I am or what I’ve done. I would love to know what they’d think if they knew about what I have behind me. These people I hobnob with, being politically active, have no clue I have that life experience behind me. It was very strange the first time I went to court with a client. It was like I was going to court. It was nerve wracking being there, feeling the tension behind me, my clients’ tension, speaking to the prosecutor and judge and having them listen to me… I don’t think I’d ever had a judge listen to me. Things have changed subtly in Utah. What I was telling them about the program and getting my client into the program, they were listening and agreeing with me. Where were these people fifteen years ago? I could have used a sympathetic judge back then. Utah has a drug court now so incarceration is not automatic.

When I went to the Board of Pardons, they congratulated me and said, “You know, if you had done this ten years later you wouldn’t have even gone to prison. We would have done everything to get you in a program.” Then they picked my brain for like an hour and asked me to write up this huge research opinion type thing on what I thought needed to be changed in the correctional system.

They are really trying in Utah. They have drug court and mental health court. I work on a diversion program to divert prostitutes from jail to a program. There is a diversion program for gay men who are busted in the parks. They are trying to get in the 20 th century, I am just saying, let’s get to the 21 st. Women are still more penalized than men, women are still completely lost when they get out of prison. Men can get room and board and get do day labor, no big deal. Women will lose their kids though if they don’t jump through a lot of hoops and they are only given 60 days to get it all together.

Welfare will penalize a woman if she lives with her boyfriend, so a lot of times women can’t even get food stamps. It’s hard, there are still things they are backward on.

The men in the prison have infinite more job opportunities- construction, trainings, mechanic shops… The women have a sewing job. That’s it. Which is fine, but Utah doesn’t have any sewing factories. The only other jobs are working in the facility- cooking or cleaning- but nothing helpful for when they walk out the door.

College is not encouraged for women. Lot’s of men walk out with a degree, but not women. You have to pay for it too. So a lot of these guys will have someone from the outside pay for their college, but the women don’t necessarily have anybody on the outside.

Q: Tell me about your work with the diversion program for women who have prostituted.

Either through outreach in the jail or a referral from a judge or the health department, women get in the program. Women in jail with a prostitution charge, and usually there are several other charges for drugs or theft or simple assault, are referred to our program. We provide intensive case management and we have an arrangement with a PhD psychologist, support groups, and a counselor on site. Between the counseling and intensive case management, they don’t have to stress as much about what they have to do. They come out of jail with a lot of expectations, the judge wants them to complete a program and probation needs them to do this, do this, do this. And they just don’t know where to go for those things. We try to remove barriers in their way. Most women who prostitute are addicts. Well, all are. And not just drug use. I had one girl who was a spending addict. She would put everything on a credit card and she became a call girl. I would say all women sex workers are addicts.

Not all addicts become sex workers though. What we found anecdotally is that a good 95% of sex workers or more were sexually abused in childhood, have zero self-esteem, few job skills, they have children, and perceive they have zero options. Once they get in the criminal system… it’s a lot easier for a man to complete probation because there are lower expectations- give a urine, go to work, maybe a substance abuse class. That’s it. For women, there’ s so much more to it. A man hiring on to a construction crew, they’re probably not even going to ask about a criminal background. But women looking for work- they don’t just ask about a criminal background, they are going to check. I mean, these are jobs involving cash registers, and property and stores and children, they are going to check. These women with backgrounds in sex work and drugs, it is pretty hard to find employment. Health and Human Services in Utah considers prostitution a sex crime, and it is not one they’ll overlook. They might overlook drug stuff, but not solicitation charges because it makes you a sex offender under their guidelines. You will never work around children, you will never work around vulnerable adults, or in any agency that gets funds from Health and Human Services. That precludes a lot of stuff.

Q: When you say 95% are sexually abused, what exactly does that mean? Does it include taunting and harassment?

Most of it is pretty severe. A lot of it is incest. Family, friends… A lot of these women come from generational situations where addiction goes back two or three generations and women are having children very young. In 30 years you can get in a few generations. A lot of these women have mothers who were addicted and fathers who were addicted and with that comes the drug parties and people coming over to the house. I can’t even think of the number of times I have heard the same scenario: Dad was a heroin addict, mom used to work the streets once in a while and so daughter is on her own, except dad’s friends would come over. They would get high and one thing would lead to another. But the daughter is seven.  

These are not nice people the daughter is exposed to. There is a lot of incest-type stuff and sexual abuse, especially in the teen years that is never discussed, especially ten or twenty years ago. A lot of these women have huge issues with trauma, post traumatic stress, chronic depression, anxiety and these problems are never addressed so they self medicate and also perpetuate the whole abuse cycle by putting themselves at risk, getting beat up by tricks, and the whole humiliation factor. Some women are okay with it, others say they’re okay with it, but you know they’re not, and then others can’t even believe what they’ve done.

Someone might be arrested for soliciting and they know they are a drug addict, but because they are picked up for soliciting and not drugs they can’t go to drug court and because they aren’t crazy, they can’t go to mental health court… We are fondly known as the “Save a hooker program.” That’s what the program is getting known as. I am okay with that as long we’re getting known. No one else is filling that gap.

Q: Going back to what you were saying about how Utah has changed, at this point, what would happen to a woman brought up on a doctor shopping charge?

They would be sent to drug court and a probably a program, especially if it was the first charge. Usually it’s about a year. Drug court itself is kind of a program. You have to meet with the judge once a week and complete a drug program. You have to do urine testing, which is somewhat problematic because you have to pay for the urine tests. I have actually had some clients end up in jail for a couple of days because the judge assumed they did not want to take the urine test because they were hiding something. I have had to go up and point out my client is homeless and doesn’t have $15 for a urine. “Well, why didn’t she say something?” Well, she was afraid and didn’t show up.

So there are still some bugs in the system. It is kind of like intensive, supervised court probation. Plus they get monitored at their drug program, too.

At some point, they’d like you to get a job, but that is hard to do because four out of five days a week you are meeting with somebody.

Q: Do most people in drug court violate eventually?

No, interestingly enough, it has a very high success rate. They don’t necessarily send you to jail for a violation. They do all sorts of things. They might give you community service hours, or a lecture by the judge, or an ankle bracelet so you can’t leave your house after six in the evening. I think the worst I have ever had was a client who did two nights in jail. They actually have a pretty high success rate. The judge in charge of the program is probably one of the best judges I have ever seen in my life. He is very compassionate and very aware of all of the issues these people are dealing with. There are mental health issues, poverty, financial issues, emotional issues. He gets it as well as anybody who hasn’t been there can.